Cloud Unplugged

Move Along: Big Blockers to Cloud Adoption

October 13, 2021 Joel Parks & Emil Sayegh Season 2 Episode 1
Cloud Unplugged
Move Along: Big Blockers to Cloud Adoption
Show Notes Transcript

Season 2 of Cloud Unplugged is here! In the inaugural episode, Joel chats to Emil Sayegh, CEO of Ntirety, about the big blockers to cloud adoption. In this day and age, why isn’t everyone moving to cloud? What’s stopping them?

To keep the conversation going, join our Slack community, follow along on Twitter and connect with Emil on Twitter or LinkedIn.

Joel Parks:

Hello and welcome to Cloud Unplugged the show where we take a lighthearted and honest look at the who, what, when, where, why, how and WTFs of cloud adoption. We are back. It is now season two! Thanks for bearing with us for our short hiatus while we plan an excellent season for you jam packed with a lot of amazing interviews and some next level content. Starting right off with an interview with Emil Sayegh. He was happy enough to sit down with us and talk for right about an hour he is the CEO of Ntirety. I won't steal his thunder, he can tell you about what they do. But with that, let's get straight to the interview. All right, well, we are back. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the first episode of season two. Thanks for your patience as we put this together. And as an added treat. For this first episode, we're joined by a very special guest. I'd like to introduce Emil Sayegh. Would you like to say hi to the audience?

Emil Sayegh:

Hello. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Excited! And yeah. Looking forward to having a great discussion today.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Now, the way that this came about was actually pretty interesting. Back in season one, I believe you reached out to our producer Katy and said, Hey, this is uh, this is resonating. Do you mind telling the audience that story?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely. Yes, somebody on my team had heard the podcast and said, you know, you should check it out and I did check it out and a lot of the topics that with a guest that you bring in, are very similar to things that we address in the market, and that we talk to customers, too. And yeah, it's absolutely happened and kind of a strange way where somebody on the on the marketing team had had heard it, and then reached out and and here we are.

Joel Parks:

Fantastic, we are really thrilled to have you. So I do want to give just a quick moment here for you to tell all the listeners about your company, and what you do and and help them understand the context of maybe where this conversations gonna go?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely, yeah. So Ntirety is a managed service provider that is focused on security. And we, we have about 2500 enterprise customers, all around the globe, we have employees all around the globe as well, with several data centres in the United States and in Canada. And we are one of the only companies that provides comprehensive managed security solutions from the ground up and you know, we'll talk about that. So that's essentially our special sauce, our secret sauce is being able to integrate security technologies throughout the entire I.T stack from the ground up, as well as not only it, you know, through managed services, but through the entire security process, right. So from discovery all the way to compliance. And we'll talk more about that throughout the discussion today in the podcast. And then just a little bit of history Ntirety is really the product of the merger of two companies, two great companies that have been run for about 20 years each post way is one of them and hosting is another so these two companies merged. And then we rebranded the company, as Ntirely and the merger has been around for about two and a half years. And we've been operating as Ntirety for for about two years now. Yep.

Joel Parks:

Fantastic. So the security discussion I can't wait to get to but you know, it will take the cue on the history and go back in time just a little bit. One thing I'm always curious about with guests is how did you come to cloud, everyone follows a bit of a journey with cloud technology, and you've obviously been in the industry for a very long time. What is your journey personally with cloud? How did you come to cloud technologies? And obviously, how did it become a pillar of your current business?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely. So it's a fantastic question. I'll give you the journey. I was mostly working for what I would say hardware companies that enterprise hardware companies, you know, I worked for a startup called our RLX Technologies that ultimately got acquired by HP. I worked For Compaq, I worked for Dell. And then naturally, my career evolved our services. And even as a as a product guy, I was a product manager, product marketing. I have a, you know, pretty good technical background as well. Earlier in my career I was an engineer snd I even have some patents by the way. So but that's a different story, some a

Joel Parks:

Awesome. different podcast. Anyway, so I naturally gravitated because as we start seeing the margins in hardware can essentially shrink services became the area that that you could actually get some differentiation, get some profit, and get some stickiness as well, right? If you were, you're selling hardware, so at Dell, I led the services thrust there. And, and this is when Dell was actually migrating from IBM Global Services to becoming, you know, its own service provider to its customers. So as you know, the hardware business became low margin and services essentially became a place that you can get some margin, and most importantly, some stickiness with customers, as you're providing services on top of the hardware. So that was the motion at Dell. And one of the outputs was like, hey, let's figure out how to do manage services. Let's do, let's figure out how to do hosting. But Dell was really at its core, a hardware company, right? It just really at its core and probably a lot of people that still work at Dell will tell you the same, even though there's a lot of services out there, but it's core, the systems, the mentality, the sales process, the sales commissions, everything, you know, was very much centred around, uh, around hardware. And this is now 2005, 2006. And there was this company, when I was at the startup RLX Technologies, we were trying to get into it was this small little company that nobody had heard of, in San Antonio, unlikely place for a tech company called Rackspace. So one of the finance professionals that had worked with at Dell will goes there and became the CFO. And in chatting with him, he says, you got to come check out this place. This is you know, you've got to come in and check it out. This is this is amazing. The culture I said, No, I know, Rackspace, I was trying to sell to them. When I was at RLX Technologies, our server blades and and so I went down to San Antonio, I lived in Austin, about an hour and a half away went down to San Antonio to visit them. And it was literally love at first sight, love at frist sight between the management team there and myself and, and I was asked and privileged to go and start the, the product team there. So built up a product function, I was the Vice President of Product when we went public in 2008, and helped the company go public, so and then in the process of that, as the product leader for a company that was you know, at the time, just doing hosting, one of the things I discovered is that there's this threat that's coming from this company that sells books called Amazon, and they have this thing that's called S3, and you know, some of our customers are starting to get, you know, storage from from this book company. And very quickly around 2007, I said, Look, we got to have an answer. So I started building up the answer, as the product leader started building up the answer for that, and very quickly, I discovered that, you know, we, it was going to take us too long, because Amazon was moving at such fast pace, it was going to take us too long to be able to, to stand up something that would be remotely competitive to them right, and protect at least our flank from, you know that massive investment that we're making cloud services. So we started a parallel, a parallel product to S3 and the product team, but I also went to the board and the management team and I said, hey, look calm, we can build this ourselves. But in reality, you know, we got to look at some acquisitions. And so we went out and we acquired a company called slice host, which had a VPS type solution that we essentially cloudified. One of the things that the board asked me is that we will make that acquisition and we will invest under one condition, you have to go in and be the GM of that cloud business. Well, at that point, you know, I thought all my career has been a product and I had enjoyed the product function. You know, being the GM of a function was, you know, flattering, but I didn't think it was my wheelhouse. But I took the risk. I went to did it and build the the Rackspace cloud business from literally scratch after we made that slice towards acquisition, we merged it from with some of the technologies that we developed in the product team. And we created the Rackspace public cloud. And and, you know, the rest is history, Rackspace, public cloud grew and grew, you know, several 100,000 customers, and then we ended up turning that code to, into OpenStack, which is an open source code, and we gave it to the world. And, you know, just to give you a perspective, that decision was made in a staff meeting, where we're kind of plotting our strategy of what are we going to do, you know, it was 2009 circa, September of 2009. And we're applauding, like how we're gonna compete with Amazon, you know, they have 1000s of developers working on this. And let's just go ahead. And so we decided to go ahead and open source our code, and get all the developers in the world to become essentially contributors. But you know, in return, we have to give out that code as open source code, and OpenStack was a great, was a great platform, at the time, and probably still is a great platform, but now it's more being used as a private cloud pebble platform. So as so as Amazon essentially took the oxygen out of the market. That's it. Yeah, that's it. That is a fantastic story on a couple of levels for me, personally. One, I have so many colleagues that are ex rackers. So I have a soft spot in my heart via them for Rackspace, even though I never worked there. Secondarily, I do remember, right around that time, reading the press release for OpenStack. And the first exposure to it and being immersed in that world, really, for the next two or three years. And was was deeply involved in the OpenStack. community. So yeah, that's a that's a, it's a very interesting story to hear. You know, OpenStack definitely had an amazing run. Therefore, I'd say 2016 maybe was sort of like the turning point, or somewhere around in there.

Emil Sayegh:

Exactly, exactly. That's absolutely turned but because, you know, when I left Rackspace, in late 2010, I went to HP, like I told you, so I was at Rackspace for about, you know, four and a half years, and then went to HP, I was the GM of the cloud business there. And, and one of the things that I did there was kind of start up the cloud business, but it was a it was based on OpenStack. And, you know, we grew that very quickly, because he had a, you know, very strong pole with some of the enterprises and whatnot. And, yeah, I mean, it was, it was an amazing tool to be able to, if you're a company like HP, you know, it was, you know, with resources, we were able to stand up in public cloud very quickly, and be in market within a year and a half. So Yep.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, that's amazing. So fast forward from there, I guess, towards your, your current company. How do you how do you see the landscape has changed, obviously, from the very early days, where AWS was, to your point, kind of surprising to a lot of people that it was a cloud service that was being offered by Amazon, which at that time was a bit bizarre, to be honest, to now where it's almost table stakes? In a lot of cases, what what have you observed, both from an industry perspective? And then also, I'd love it, if you could talk about what you've seen within your customers, you know, what are what are they seeing, and what are they experiencing?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely. So Cloud has essentially become commoditized. I mean, specifically, though, I wouldn't say all the cloud services, but I would say specifically storage and, and compute. I mean, those, those have been commoditized, essentially, right. So you get, you know, Google, Azure, AWS. And many of our customers have a mixture of these three, right? So we as a company, are cloud agnostic. We have expertise, deep expertise in AWS, in Azure, some in Google, you know, that's a nascent expertise that we're bringing up inside of the company, but you know, we're agnostic. If a customer comes in says, Hey look, I have a preference for one or another Or I need to, you know, I need some help here or some help there, you know, we can offer managed services on top of any cloud as well as our private cloud, in our data centres. So what we're seeing with customers is that specifically with the customers that we target, and I'll tell you, you know, just a little anecdote on that, we like customers that have been around for a long time, we like customers that are 15 years, 10 years older. And, and the question is why is honestly, because they have a mess on their hand, they have a, yes, they have a mess on their hands, like, it's hard to manage a multi cloud hybrid infrastructure, little bit of Oracle, they're a little bit of Microsoft, they're, Oh they made an acquisition, and they were based on VMware, and then, and then later, they get acquired, and then they acquirer, you know, wanted to, you know, had a mandate to move into the cloud. So they, they spun off some Azure, and, and, you know, figure out how to manage that figure out how to secure that is a mess. So we love

Joel Parks:

Yes.

Emil Sayegh:

those kind of customers, and, and we can actually help them, we've been around for 20 years, we've seen this evolution, we were like, as the company, you know, we've been around, you know, through. So there's not many technologies that we haven't, we haven't worked with, that we don't have resident expertise in. And, you know, we're fortunate that our employees are very long tenured, and really kind of have seen this shift. So I'm seeing more and more customers have a mess on their hand from a cloud infrastructure standpoint, or from an infrastructure standpoint, in general. And they're coming to people like us and saying, Please help us kind of figure this out. And I do believe that COVID has made it worse, because now that we have extended the perimeter to outside of just strictly the four walls of the office, and even I.T is working from home. And now what you have is actually a little bit of a major shift in the way that security is being thought of, you know, before COVID, and post COVID. Because, because we've seen a crescendo of risks and hacks, and that's growing exponentially. And that is all caused by cloud complexities, because hackers and hacks, they love these cracks in the system. Right? They love it. And they love this disperse, like, Oh, I have a little bit of, you know, and a lot of the hacks that are happening is people don't know what they're doing with AWS, and they leave, you know, they leave a backdoor open, or they leave a bucket unsecured or, I mean, this is how a lot of these hacks are happening. But also, there are hacks that are happening through monitoring systems, through various third party software that is being, that is being implemented to kind of manage the complexity. So the complexity actually has created a massive opportunity for, for hacks and for cybersecurity threats.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up COVID because that seems to have really accelerated, I mean, it's, it's not that cloud adoption wasn't already happening at a pretty good clip. But it does seem that COVID has removed any doubt, from pretty much any organisation that, you know, that's going to be the way forward at least in part is, Do you find that to be true?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely, it is very much true. And during COVID, to be frank with you, I thought, you know, when when March came around, and I was outlooking the business, I you know, all the signs, like we were going to see massive slowdown and so on and so forth. But, you know, lo and behold, we ended up really accelerating our growth during COVID, you know, minus, like few industries that were suffering, you know, like the hospitality industry, we had some exposure to that suffered.

Joel Parks:

Right.

Emil Sayegh:

But, you know, basically all the other industries that needed, that needed to continue operating, you know, they needed to essentially maximise the use of the cloud in a secure manner because now not only they couldn't access their, their, their offices anymore, they couldn't access their data centres because of, you know, various reasons. But they also needed to operate in a remote manner, highly securely, right. So that created a massive opportunity for us, knock on wood, and you know, whatever revenue and customers that we lost, you know, due, you know to certain industries being hit hard, regretfully, like the hospitality industry and cruise industry and so on and so forth. We were able to gain with other customers growing and so on and so forth.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, that's very similar to what I've observed over the same period of time, it seems like immediately, in the wake of everyone being sent home, there was a huge push for VDI in the cloud, and a shortlist of other things. And it only accelerated from there. And so, really going with that, you know, given that I does feel that we're living in a bit of a new age of cloud, like maybe we're in sort of the second wave of cloud adoption, really in earnest. I'm kind of curious from your perspective, given that you work with a lot of different organisations in different industries. Do you find any commonality in blockers? So specifically what is preventing people from being able to take full advantage of the cloud?

Emil Sayegh:

The number one thing that I think is the blocker is a mentality, it's not a technology, it's really a mentality where there's still folks that want to hug the servers or know where their server is there still folks that are, you know, living in that, I would say 2010 world, right, and haven't really kind of made it into the 2020s. And, you know, we, the, the movement is, undeniably, it's a cultural one, you know, cloud is a cultural shift. And you know, what, what's going on right now is that you get all the millennials that are starting to kind of take over some, you know, higher level responsibilities and cloud is all they know, right? The cloud is all they know. And there's a high level of comfort, but the blockers are really some old mentalities about, you know, wanting to kind of essentially know exactly where your data is. Now, there's other legitimate blockers such as, such as regulations, such as, you know, certain what I would say, governmental requirements for residency and country. So there's definitely legitimate reasons, but I would say those are the exceptions to the rule the majority, there's, there's really no need to still have things in a data closet or a data centre that the enterprise runs. Unless you're Salesforce, or you're the size of Facebook or whatnot, I mean there's no, there's really no need to do that anymore.

Joel Parks:

Right, yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned regulations and compliance. When it comes to regulatory pressure and obligation or compliance issues, What do you find to be the most common compliance or regulatory or audit pressures that are applied to companies as they move to cloud? Because I think this is something that maybe just doesn't get discussed enough, at least publicly? Because I know from talking with customers, that there's often a lot of anxiety around that. And I feel like that's probably due to they're just not being a lot of information or concrete information floating around.

Emil Sayegh:

Yeah, I mean, the, this is actually something a service that we provide, which is compliance as a service. And we help customers, you know, get secure and get compliant. And we manage that process throughout the lifecycle on an ongoing basis, as well as on a project basis just to kind of get them there. So right, this is part of what this is part of a service that we provide, and then you know, that's part of our differentiation is, is compliant, compliance security through entire stack, but I would say the issue is, number one, what we find, believe it or not, many customers do not know what standards they need to be compliant with. It's actually interesting. There's a lot of industries that don't have the type of high trust compliance or PCI compliance that is needed right. But, they often, you know, don't understand what they need to be compliant with and this is partly also part of the discovery we help them with actually.

Joel Parks:

Okay, fantastic. So, I guess one thing I've always wondered is when a customer is moving to cloud, when they're beginning to embrace cloud as a first class citizen within their technology portfolio, But they're still under compliance obligation, you know, is the is the challenge around knowing which obligations to comply with and what standards and practices they need to meet? Or is it one of being able to easily access the data at audit time to be able to prove their compliance? It's always been a little bit of a question for me. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of both, I would say it's a little bit of both. The issue is that in many cases, what we see, to be quite candid, is folks figure out that you need to be compliant with something but it's too late. There's, they don't give it enough time, right, a compliance programme, a compliance programme takes a year so that you can get your ducks in a row internally, that's if you start on time, and you have resources and, you know, you have the entire company that is committed to it. And then so but that you don't get the compliance yet, this is an internal process where you're working to even see whether you can get compliant or not, and then you get to fix all your issues. And then you go through an audit cycle, and even with the audit cycle, and certain compliance requirements, they'll come and do the audit, they want to see you kind of function, they'll give you a preliminary approval, but then they want to see you make sure that you maintain it so that, you know from beginning to end, Right.

Emil Sayegh:

of the two and a half years, and and as they say you can't have a baby in a month.

Joel Parks:

Yeah.

Emil Sayegh:

It's 9 months, you know.

Joel Parks:

Yeah.

Emil Sayegh:

So this is the proverbial, uh, analogy here.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, it's not a compliance switch that you just turn on. There's, there's a lot of moving parts to it. I'm also curious, obviously, sort of the the first wave of cloud adoption, at least in my point of view was really focused around migration. So it was migration from a private data centre to cloud infrastructure in some form or fashion. And it was really, it was that it was migration focused. And in a lot of cases, it was really lift and shift, there wasn't a lot of transformation, necessarily, that was usually sort of a secondary step, once you land in the cloud, or at least for a lot of customers that I've talked to. The other thing that I've noticed is, there's usually a second wave of adoption that follows right behind that where it's more about cloud native services, containers, Kubernetes, serverless, different runtimes that are less infrastructure specific. I would love to get your take specifically on customers that are making that transition, and maybe how that's presenting a new set of blockers or challenges, vis-a-vis security, compliance, etc.

Emil Sayegh:

Yeah, so I mean, absolutely, this is going to be, you know, we're talking about virtualization on top of virtualization. So we're, you know, we're kind of almost abstracting ourselves now, even more from the hardware, which is great. Because at this point, you know, it's not just like you're abstracting yourself from the hardware, but you're also in a way, abstracting yourself from different cloud providers. And then you're, you're becoming truly cloud agnostic, because these containers could be moved very easily from one call to the next. And, you know, you're creating some fluidity there. So from a, I mean, it's new, I mean, I think the blocker is that is that the further you go up, there's still people that are trying to understand the cloud. So now you add Kubernetes on top of it, they're like, Ah, you know, but, you know, this is technology, you know, we're always changing, we're always moving forward. And, and, and, you know, the challenge that security and Kubernetes comes into play is not much different than than security cloud or security, security, regular infrastructure, I'll be honest with you, it's just all the same stuff. You know, the, the issue, the issue with security, a lot of it is, is built, building security from the ground up, you know, making sure that your patching is done correctly, making sure that the monitoring is done in a secure fashion, making sure that you have some kind of intrusion detection, making sure that you have a system by which you're using artificial intelligence machine learning to screen traffic coming into your IT infrastructure, whether that's Kubernetes or cloud or dedicated infrastructure, it really doesn't matter. You've got to have intelligence that is scrutinising all that traffic and scrubbing it identifying the things that are likely threats so that human beings can look at them, analyse them, right I mean, there's no way human beings I mean, because you're talking about billions and billions of threats are coming in or potential threats. Those need to be struck by some kind of an AI or machine learning engine that will escalate those that look like, you know, more likely to be threats, right? And then human beings at that point, you know, kind of look at them say, yeah, you know, this is a real thing or not, you know, that's just you know, this is this is a false positive here, so. So frankly, it's not much different. The only thing though, is that if you don't have that protection umbrella that moves, you know, if you take your Kubernetes templates, right, and you spin them another cloud, and you don't really apply that entire security stack that I'm describing, and that umbrella, the security umbrella, that's where you're going to be exposed, because they're so easy. I mean, it's huge. It's not an inherent technological security issue. It's just that they're so easy to spin up, that human beings will forget the steps, somebody else comes in, spins them up somewhere else and forget that they have to take all these precautions, right? And it's the same story that we've seen in the public cloud in the early days when people left their S3 buckets with, you know,

Joel Parks:

Yeah, yeah.

Emil Sayegh:

It's the same exact story, if you remember, you know, when S3 became popular, and people would just leave their their buckets open.

Joel Parks:

Yeah, open to the world. I guess if you take away the the idea of blockers for a second another. Another way to think about this, potentially is, you know, if I'm a new customer coming to cloud, and I'm still in that that first wave of adoption, where it's it's focused around infrastructure primarily, what are likely at or from your experience? What What am I likely to be surprised by in that early stage? What do you what would you say are the biggest surprises awaiting kind of new cloud or cloud neophytes, I'll put it that way.

Emil Sayegh:

Um, cost, they're gonna go, a lot of neophytes think the cloud is cheaper, it's not, that's the wrong reason to go to the cloud. Right? Right, you have to have, like, other reasons other than other than cost, because if you're just going to the cloud for costs, it's just won't compute. And we've seen that movie so many times. The other thing is that, you know, they, you know, a lot of people think the cloud is a blob, I mean, actually, you know, the cloud, to demystify it, it's just a server in somebody else's data centre route that's wrapped up with, with some awesome software, and some awesome services that sit on top of it, right, that make the whole thing seamless. And I would say the other thing is that a lot of people still confuse cloud with just compute and storage, when now it is a, an immense array of services there, they will get confused, and really disoriented very quickly. If, because it's a, I mean, it's a dizzying array of services at, at every AWS conference, I mean, there's hundreds of new services that get announced, right. And so it's not a single thing. It's not compute and storage, but it's really a lot of the a lot of the advanced services that that enable it to be so useful, and so, so ubiquitous, if you will,

Joel Parks:

Right. If I'm a user, maybe in that later stage of cloud adoption, where it's more services based, maybe more about containers, or serverless, or things like that, what do you think the second wave of surprises would be?

Emil Sayegh:

The second wave of surprises, in my humble opinion, is, is the need now all of a sudden, you're in the cloud, this that, is the needs of the business to do other things that what you just spent, you know, two years preparing for, it's like, oh, you know, we just acquired a company, and, and they're Azure based, or they still are inside data centres, or they're using AI X somewhere in one of their data centres, and you have to bridge to that you have to call on that to get information and tie all these systems together, or whatnot. Right? So I think the surprise is the complex is how business changes. It's not just a straight line, a lot of startups and a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, whenever the starting businesses born in the cloud, they think, Oh, this is gonna, this is how it's going to be for the rest of, you know, rest of eternity. It's not, you know, invariably companies merge invariably top companies get acquired and, and, and I would say that's the second wave is like, goodness, you know, how do I do that? Right? This is when they start stretching their heads. And this is honestly where we get called in. This is exactly the situations where we can help because we get expertise. Across all these platforms.

Joel Parks:

Yeah perfect. Well, I think that that's probably a great place for us to wrap up. So first of all, thank you so much for for joining the podcast today. This has been fantastic. how can listeners find your company and you?

Emil Sayegh:

Absolutely it's www.ntirity.com and Ntirity is spelled n t i r e t y. But we also own the domain entirely spelled that way so both laces will get you to the company but the official name his company's capital n t i r e t y and you can find us there you can find me on Twitter, @esayegh is my handle, you can find me on LinkedIn, Emil Sayegh. And I am extremely approachable. love talking to customers, prospects, partners, and love to talk to thought leaders like yourself and like your listeners. I really truly enjoy that. I also have a column on Forbes. If you Google my name, and in Forbes, I publish there probably three or four times a month and really it's about the topics of, of cloud security challenges, sometimes public policy when it comes to when it comes to relate to public cloud and to security. Frankly, I enjoy these topics I do them in my spare time. I'm kind of a nerd like that. So I would love to connect with you in the future as well as with your listeners.

Joel Parks:

Fantastic. We'll make sure that all that information ends up in the show notes so the listeners can can easily find both Ntirety, yourself and your Forbes column. Emil, thank you so much for joining the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Emil Sayegh:

Of course Thank you.

Joel Parks:

Thanks so much to Emil for that sit down. It was really fun and I hope to have him back on sometime soon. If you are listening to this, the week of October 11 when this episode drops we are at KubeCon please find us at booth SU72 on the KubeCon floor. We would love to meet you in person, shake your hand. If you're into that thing. We realise there's COVID it's you know, if you don't, it's okay. But come see us at KubeCon we would love to talk with you. If you're not in Los Angeles, please check out the episode description for a link to our slack community. You can join us there and keep the conversation going. As always, please rate and review us on your favourite podcast app. You can always tweet us @cloud_unplugged, or email us at cloudunpluggedpodcast@gmail.com, You can also find us on youtube at Cloud unplugged for episodes, transcripts and bonus content. As always, thank you for listening. Thanks for sticking with us into season two and we will see you next time.